Tuesday, September 7, 2010

Do we need school?

As you can tell, my question here is inspired by the John Taylor Gatto article you read for Wednesday. His question is as follows, "do we really need school," i.e. "forced schooling" that follows what he calls a "deadly routine"? What is your take on this proclamation? According to Gatto, what is the purpose of this education -- what does it train American students to be? Do you agree with his assessment?

27 comments:

  1. Gatto was basically saying that we are robots. "Forced schooling" does not let us become the geniuses we could possibly be. In a way, I agree. The idea of making a well-rounded individual takes away possible "genius-making time." At the same time however, forced public education levels the playing field to some degree. It allows everyone to have a higher chance at a good career. Although Gatto may have been correct in saying that those who want to learn will teach themselves, forced public education gives everyone the opportunity to learn. It allows those who would not normally have had the resources for teaching available to become knowledgeable.

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  2. I agree fully with Megatron. Although forced schooling is an opportunistic way of allowing equality to all individuals, it can also be very crippling and counter-productive to learning itself. I know I've had my fair share of times that I hated waking up 5 days a week to go to something I didn't want to go to, but nonetheless did, because I knew and appreciated the value of a good education. Some people (especially nowadays) have this problem of loathing forced schooling, and don't "learn," but rather go through the same tests, homework, and other repetitive tasks for the sake of finishing them, not for necessarily learning what they're doing. Again, those who want to learn, will learn.

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  3. The above bloggers have already summed up his argument, so I will not restate it. All I will say is that his arguments are flawed. At points he seems to say that mandatory schooling is evil. But, that is simply not true. His evidence does necessarily point to the evils of mandatory schooling. It points to a problem with our system of mandatory schooling. Students should not be bored in school but this points to a problem not with the concept but with the way it is done. Even if people are trained to be drones (and that is actually bad), it doesn't have to be that way.

    Furthermore, the initial ideals which he points out as evil are not necessarily so. There can be a good argument made in favor of those goals.

    Besides that, the modern economy now requires a more educated populace. We no longer have a commodity based economy but an information based one. With such an economy we need mandatory education.

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  4. I will agree with Gatto to a degree here. The school system as it is currently forces students to learn a few chosen things, no matter how they feel about them. I believe that this is necessary to a point. Everyone needs basic reading and writing skills, but after a person is made to be able to function, I believe that he/she should be on their own to decide what they wish to do. I basically believe that the college experience of a specific major should be pressed forward to the high school, and possibly even middle school, level(s). I believe that this will allow a certain leveling of the playing field, while also allowing students to study what they like, keeping them from becoming bored and allow their genius to expand fully and early.
    If a person does not know what they want to do, they have the ability to pursue an education in everything, and beccome a "well rounded individual," until they find out what they want to do wiht their lives.

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  5. I personally think that the incorporation of schooling in the world is very important. Without schools and education the world would be run by uneducated and unmotivated people. There would be no way to measure how much someone really knows, a person could walk into an interview claiming that they are the most qualified person for the job. This would make the interviewer's job extremely difficult and they would have no way of ranking applicants. Without any education peoples opinions and personal knowledge would be the stem of every argument, and the majority of arguments would have no end because it would be all opinion based.
    The school system also gives people a taste of all the possible jobs they could possibly go into and choose to make a career out of. Without this introduction of the possible fields of study a person is less likely to go into something they would truly accelerate in and make a difference in the world.
    This being said, the school system does have its major flaws. It should be something that allows kids to learn and thrive, but in an environment best accommodating for maturing, learning, developing as an individual.

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  6. I think the principle behind public education is good- trying to provide an opportunity for all to get an education- but I think the major issue with it is that it has become forced. Students who have no desire to be at school are forced to sit through classes seven hours a day five days a week. This produces students who are no longer self motivated but are instead just going through the motions that have now become mandatory in a system that often feels like prison. When students can choose for themselves the education that they want to receive they become much more highly motivated. Not all students will choose to get an education. But in our system here in America it is very clear to all that getting an education opens doors and provides opportunities for people to succeed, and believe it or not I think teenagers are capable of drawing that conclusion.
    When schools are filled with people that truly want to be there they will thrive. And for those who would not choose to go to school they would need to find another means to be successful in life. Perhaps a more trade oriented path.

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  7. Gatto's whole concept was based around the extreme side effects of public education. Obviously, there are the downsides to teaching "the masses". One of Gatto's main observations was the absolute lack of enthusiasm. Unenthusiastic teachers teaching students that have been taught to not want to learn will result in the least efficient process of teaching possible. But that's exactly that "they" want. A brain dead society that is taught to constantly consume.
    However, an enthusiastic student that is learning for their own benefit will produce a high efficient, streamlined, enjoyable school career, regardless of the teachers.

    I think that a nation-wide school system is needed, for the most part. What I think we, as a country, should change is the level of enthusiasm and personal endeavors. With an increase of each, students will shift from being mindless to being innovative and driven.

    Drive is what develops a strong student. Teachers should only be available to start, inspire, and increase that personal drive.

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  8. Gatto argues that school is based in teaching children to respect authority, teach them conformity, and decide social roles. This is in opposition to what reasons are generally given for compulsory education, that is, to make good people and help children achieve their personal best.

    Their entire lives, children are looking around themselves and seeing what other people are doing. Children are excellent mimics, too. In elementary school, student A is leaning back in his chair, so student B leans back in hers to see if it is a fun game. In Jr. High, student A picks on student C, so student B join in. In high school, student A joins a club, and student B follows. The problem is, when children are surrounded by their peers, they have to deal with children. And children are annoying, and immature, and stupid. So when they’re surrounded by immaturity and idiocy, they will copy the behavior.

    As Gatto says, children were not children, in the past, when they turned 13. Why is the age of immaturity extended into late teenage years? It’s because children are surrounded by other children. What would happen if a thirteen year old was surrounded by adults at a job? He’d grow up much faster. All around him, he would see responsibility and work, and copy that behavior. Instead, the modern thirteen-year-old is surrounded by thirteen-year-olds, that is, slackers, bullies, and idiots.

    Compulsory education means that all people are forced to stay with their age equivalents for much longer than they did in the past. So it is technically true that schooling is the root cause of the way people are today, but Gatto is dead wrong when he says that it is because that’s what children are told to do. They are the way they are because they’re emulating each other. There isn’t a single thing that an educator or authority figure could do that students haven’t already done to themselves.

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  9. I think Gatto took a good idea and pushed it to the extreme. Forcing someone to do something has never produced great results in whatever the situation. However, allowing young adults to make a choice on whether they should go to school and learn, even though it isn't fun and exciting at the time, or if they wanted to stay home and just lay around would result in an almost catastrophic failure in the education system. There will always be children with parents pushing them to school, but the other children with parents that dont care would be put at a great disadvantage without even getting their feet wet...

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  10. It is eerie to think that we have all just completed twelve years of study in an institution that is geared to create, essentially, zombies to the wants of society. For those that have had to comply with a traditional school setting, meaning public school, it feels as if we have been trained like a child is potty trained. We are trained to be consumers, we are trained to understand our positions in society and to learn to accept that mobility in the social realm is either impossible or strictly taboo. However, if we take into account the benefits we have pulled from high school, such as learning to cope with other personalities, understanding the dynamics of teamwork, appreciating the power of self motivation, our past schooling does not seem so bad after all. Did we in fact turn out as mindless consuming "children," or did we ever grow up into meanngful adults? Perhaps we are in some sort of middle ground; yes we recognize the tracks of a compulsory education as it emphasizes consumption and conformity, but no, we used the material given by our schools to broaden our horizons and have gained some grain of maturity resembling that of unchildish individuals.

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  11. Gatto was getting at the point that going to school for 12 years isn't necessary. Instead we should let the people choose for themselves if they want to continue going to school or not. Then by making it mandatory we are dumbing down the schools to make it so more people can pass. This cause the education to not be of very good quality.

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  12. According to Gatto, modern public schooling isn't overall beneficial to the American public. And while I agree with him to an extent, I feel that parents and families should keep the benefits of different educational paths that may be available to their children. Sure say private schools are an arguably preferable option, but not all families, especially the lower class ones, are able to afford commodities that give students an edge in their learning capabilities. Ultimately, I feel that one should take what they can get. If you are able to provide a student with different, better opportunities than those you can get for free, then you should do it, and take every opportunity to self-educate as well. It's better to learn what you want to than for someone to hold you down and bludgeon you with knowledge.

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  13. The purpose of his argument was to inspire. I know that I was inspired after I read the article. I was inspired because I have been feeling the same way for too long now. Why do I have to learn things that aren't going to apply to the career I want in life? Why can't our society focus on helping students find what they want to do in life and teach them the necessary knowledge for that job? I'm not saying our society should become like the one in "Brave New World", I'm saying that we should give the basic knowledge up to a certain point, such as eighth grade and from ninth and up focus on the chosen path or something of the sorts. I would like that more than all subjects being taught all the way to college and even further.

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  14. I don't think that we need schooling. Like Gatto said, we need to be educated, just not in the rigid program we've got in the U.S. right now. As children, everyone loves to learn (whether or not they like to learn every subject, they like to learn things). When you take away the ability to discover things for oneself, I think the curiosity dies. I'm not going to point fingers here because Gatto was right when he said that our boredom is our fault, but I know I speak for a lot of students when I say that every micromanaged, explicitly dictated project chipped a little bit of our excitement away. I think many of us are at Tech because we still have a desire to learn, but some of us have lost the motivation to do what it takes to excel.

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  15. Schooling is a fundamental part of American culture. Required schooling is necessary for this nation to exist. Freedom is a huge responsibility which must be handled with wisdom. Wisdom comes from knowledge though wisdom is different. One must use wisdom and discernment to be a good citizen. When voting, research is needed to pick the candidate that will best represent one's views. Schooling should be required because as a child most people would have stayed home and stay ignorant. Learning is hard and requires effort;therefore, most would leave at an early age if schooling were not required.

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  16. Tim provides an excellent point, that education make the American people who they are. However, a compromise is possible. Education should me mandatory up to 8th or 9th grade, by which point the student should understand the system enough to know the importance of education. School up to this point should also be more encompassing, not simply restating everything up to that point and adding one or two new things, but actually teaching new material after a minimal review period. This way, school beyond 8th grade is made and truly is optional, similiar to college. Students have a base and then can chose for themselves hat they want to do with their lives. This would change the public educational system to one that would no longer produce robots but original unique students whose pride in their accomplishments is matched by their desire to learn and improve themselves

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  17. I think that we need school, however school needs to be altered to provide more education to the students. It needs to allow us to grow up instead of hold us back, like Gatto says, the present day school system is keeping us with a childish mindset, and it is not allowing us to mature and become adults. He uses examples such as Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, and others to argue his point that schooling isn't needed, but education is needed. He states that these beings were not schooled, but they were educated. I think that having and education and being educated is the true key to success.

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  18. Gatto is, as many above have already stated, saying that the school system is basically turning us into machines built to follow instructions. Other bloggers have mentioned that a strict all equal schooling would hinder the genius in most, if not all children. but no one, as far as i found, mentioned how problematic it would also be for the students who have to learn at a slower pace in order to learn anything at all. Those children would have troubles in the typical, day to day schooling.
    Also, the grueling day to day boring routine kills creativity. Humans need change. I've heard advice on the radio (which I admit is probably not the best advice of all time) that said to change up your daily routine every once in a while to stimulate your brain and keep it "young". otherwise your mind just falls into the routine and soon enough just does it without having to think about it.

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  19. The main problem associated with mandatory schooling for everyone from K-12 is that it is an enormous system. Keeping such a system "running" is an immense managerial task. The problems that Gatto mentions are really side effects of trying to run such a huge system. Mandatory schooling isn't inherently evil, and it isn't part of a master plan to dehumanize everyone. The boredom and lack of creativity is a result of the perceived need to keep track of everyone for the purpose of "accountability."

    The boredom in classrooms is encountered on account of the teacher's fears of upsetting the system. Teachers have to recognize that they don't have to teach only to the level dictated by the system. Pushing their students to excel in their own ways should be the first duty of a teacher. If a student can be allowed perform exceptionally while following the curriculum of a creative and dedicated teacher, then living up to the system's standards is a trivial matter. The unattractive aspect of this approach is that it does bear a degree of uncertainty, which inhibits its application. If the teachers can recognize that their are numerous avenues to success for their students, then school might become something for more students to look forward to.

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  20. I cannot completely agree with what Gatto is saying about education. Gatto claims that the educational system is training eternal children through its vast amount of guidance. Yes, the US educational system is highly structured, and it does socialize people so that they conform with a general whole. However, I do not believe that this is a bad thing. People seem to form groups quite frequently, and leaders always seem to emerge within groups. If people are not following a similar ruleset to a degree, than it would be difficult to form groups and even more difficult to lead the group. In the case of America, children are simply being drawn into an existing group of millions of people, and the society that these people exist in is preserved through the next generation of people.

    On the subject of creating eternal children, I have to completely disagree with Gatto. I do not feel that the American public is comprised of mindless adults, just people with various experiences. Gatto sounds like an elitist who thinks that only one type of intelligence counts as intelligence. What about the people that simply do not want to have to deal with Gatto's idea of independant thought? Not everyone wants to have to manage every aspect of what happens in their life. Sometimes it is easier to let someone lead the way (especially when you are specialized in some other topic and you have no idea what is happening).

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  21. In a way, I agree with Gatto. I no longer see it that we are taught to go figure stuff out. Instead, we are taught (or so it seems to me) that everything will be okay, that we don't have to worry. When I got to Tech, things were tough. Nothing was handed to me and nothing was easy. I had been told, perhaps subconsciously, that I didn't have to worry. If I got in trouble, my principal or my teachers would take care of it. I was never made to take responsibility for my actions.

    Another thing that Gatto drove home for me was that, well, forcing children to school does not honestly teach them anything. Quite often I would roll out of bed at 6 in the morning and wish I didn't have to go to school. Five days of the same repetitive schedule is not conducive to keeping active students focused on learning. I spent most of my time in high school sleeping or texting friends stupid jokes instead of paying attention. I did most of my learning at home and on my own time, usually with the aid of family. It went faster and worked better... So why bother with school?

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  22. I am inclined to agree with The Dude. While I found the whole idea of forced schooling annoying sometimes when I was still in grade school, it put me in an environment where I actually felt encouraged to learn. I also learned much more than I would have if I had just stayed home. When Horace Mann was lobbying for education reform, schooling was viewed as a blessing. I do not understand why many people loath it now that everyone has access to education. To summarize, I do not se why people are complaining about having an education. I think that forced education is a blessing, not a curse.

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  23. I believe that schooling is a necessary part of life; however, the system we possess now is unnecessary. Life in and of itself is a learning experience. When civilizations were first forming, and trades becoming important, people managed to gain an education through their parents, the trials of life, and apprenticing. Why is it that we are under the assumption today that students must spend 12 years learning when in the past, a 12 year old already schooled in their field. In our desire to “advance” we are actually causing students to learn less, as they are endlessly trapped in a classroom and unable to experience any trials of the real world. We also are causing them to be less mature by allowing them to simply be told what to do until they are 18 instead of forcing them to grow and make decisions for themselves. I believe that we need to return to the old methods of instruction, and allow our posterity to actually learn something.

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  24. I feel that having a public education system is valuable as a system to "level the playing field," that is to say that as we have now learned in class there are still racial inequalities in our country as well as a significant dichotomy between the rich and the poor. A public education system that treats children of all racial and economic classes equally is very important, but I also feel that our current model of a public school system isn't competitive on a global scale in terms of student academic success and this issue should be resolved in some way.

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  25. According to Gatto, forced education is wrong. I would agree, and not for the sake of being anti-establishment. Forced schooling, again according to Gatto, creates mindless children who are subject to conformity. Routines create boredom and education should be exciting and should make kids yearn for more. Americans have taken this for granted. So much is given and readily available to so many individuals that all Americans would have to do is reach out and take it. Americans have taken education for granted and have become bored/apathetic about their learning and accomplishments.

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  26. Just like tyler said, routines create boredom and education in a lot of ways is very dry and dull. At the same time though, i must say that if gatto was right, and everyone decided that a complete reform of our system was in need, that such reform would cripple the system. A complete and opposite change would break the system which be even more detrimental to students.

    Education is not looked at like a necessity for growth and excelleration and benefit, but instead just something that has to be done so you can do something, whatever it is, later on.

    We need a system that instills values and desire into our kids. However, at this stage, it is most likely not possible on a mass level.

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  27. In essence we do need forced schooling. It provides a great way for all students to have access to a great, free education. Forced schooling does not turn students into robots who follow a daily routine. If the student craves knowledge he/she will learn and take advantage of forced schooling. Forced schooling does not limit the "genius-making-time" of a student, it promotes by providing the student with a place to learn each and everyday.

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